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The Betty H. Carter Women Veterans Historical Project

Oral history interview with Kimberly Galloway, 2008

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Object ID: WV0442.5.001

Description: Primarily documents Kimberly Galloway’s service in the U.S. Air Force Security Service from 1974 to 1979.

Summary:

Galloway primarily discusses her experiences as a woman in the mostly male security service, and her deployments to Japan and Greece. She remembers facing discrimination and harassment, and recalls the difficulties of serving as a Morse systems operator. Galloway also details her reasons for leaving Ohio, and how military service enriched her later life.

Other subjects include her views on women in combat and discrimination; her desire for equal social rights for all; and the experience of living in Japan and Greece. Additionally, she discusses her later life and marriage; personal views on parenting; her desire to serve as a mentor; and her role in the 1976 defection of MiG-25 pilot Viktor Ivanovich Belenko to the United States.

Creator:

Biographical Info:

Collection: Kimberly Galloway Oral History

Rights: It is responsibility of the user to follow the copyright law of the United States (Title 17, U.S. Code). Materials are not to be reproduced in published works without written consent, and any use should credit Jackson Library, The University of North Carolina at Greensboro.

Full Text:

Therese Strohmer:

[laughter] Well this is Therese Stromer. Today is December 20, 2008, and I am in Ashland, Oregon. This is an oral history interview for the Women’s Veterans Historical Project at The University of North Carolina at Greensboro. I have Kim Galloway here with me.

So Kim, why don’t you say your name the way you would like it on your collection?

Kimberly Galloway:

Kimberly Padolleck[?] Galloway.

TS:

Okay, great.

KG:

I’m better on tape. [laughter]

TS:

All right, Kim. Well why don’t we start off by having you tell me about where and when you grew up?

KG:

I grew up in a small town in Ohio—the middle of Ohio. The name of the town is Urbana, Ohio. I was born and raised there. I went through school there: grade school, middle school, high school. A very vanilla growing up, but also very safe. I felt very safe. Everyone knew everyone.

TS:

Was it a rural or a city-type environment?

KG:

No, more rural. Most of the people that lived there were either farmers or they worked in factories. Both of my parents worked in factories—different factories. My dad worked for International Harvester, and my mom worked for Bulldog.

TS:

What that—what’s Bulldog?

KG:

They made parts of some kind, and I don’t know what it was exactly. I can’t remember. But they were parts, and they sold them. And my dad was part of building trucks—not cars or—semi-trucks.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

And that’s what they built in this factory in Springfield, which was about twenty minutes from Urbana.

TS:

Okay. Now, did you have any brothers or sisters?

KG:

I have—I am the oldest of three children. My—I have a sister who is five years younger than I am, and I have a brother who is ten years younger than I am. And I often said to my parents, “What did you celebrate every five years?” [laughs] Because I found it unique. [laughs]

TS:

That you’re all five years apart?

KG:

Yeah.

TS:

Well that’s great. So in—okay, so you didn’t live in the city. You lived out kind of in the country?

KG:

No, we lived in town.  

TS:

Okay.

KG:

We had three residences while I lived there. One was kind of on the outskirts of town but still in town. And then we moved closer to town, and I—to the center of town and by the city swimming pool. So I spent my summers, as a middle-schooler, at the swimming pool. And then in high school we moved very close the high school. It was only two blocks from the high school. And so that’s how I grew up. Very—

And again, I really feel fortunate that I had the childhood that I did. Because even though I have a few strong work ethic that my parents gave me—because not only did they work at the factories, they owned apartment houses. And as children—all the children helped in some way: like I would shovel snow or put ice—salt down on the ice or one of the apartments the heating systems was hot water and you had to fill the hot water tank. And I can remember pushing my—pulling my brother on a sled down to the apartments to fill up the hot water heater. But I look back on that now, as I’m fifty-two, and think what a wonderful childhood and what a great work ethic my parents have instilled in me. And I feel fortunate—I truly do—to have had that childhood. And it was safe. I felt safe there. I felt loved. I felt secure. And a small town in Ohio during that time, it was great.

TS:

So what kind of—what time period are we talking about here?

KG:

I was born in 1956.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

And I graduated from high school in 1974.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

And another unique thing about me is that I graduated when I was seventeen—graduated from high school when I was seventeen. And I think—I now have a daughter, and she graduated from high school when she was seventeen. And I think that it—I think that being the first born and being a young graduate, you have—you’re a little bit more driven. And I see it now. I see it very, very clearly in my life. I didn’t see it when I was seventeen or eighteen, but I see it now. [laughter]

TS:

Well before we go—like, you know, you’re getting out of high school—let’s back up a little bit and tell me a little bit about what you remember about grade school. Or do you remember liking school or teachers or anything like that?

KG:

I remember not thinking I was a good student.

TS:

That you were or you weren’t?

KG:

Were not.

TS:

Oh, okay.

KG:

And I—this is a unique thing about my parents: my dad was the first high school graduate in his family, and my mother did not graduate from high school. She doesn’t have a high school degree. And I think that because of that and the work ethic, now that I’m older I see how my parents—it was more important to do the work—excuse me—than to do the school work. And I changed that with my child. But I didn’t see it at the time growing up, but I see it now. And I think—I didn’t think that I was smart.

And that’s another unique story with the military. When I took the test to go into the military, my scores were in the top 10 percent. And I didn’t think that I was smart, so I of course—and if you know me, you would know this about me—I said, “Well there’s a mistake.” And I said, “I need to take the test again.” And then I of course scored even higher because I knew the test. [laughs] And it was a unique thing for me. And remember, I graduated in ’74, and Urbana is a very backwards kind of place where women are supposed to get married and have babies. And I didn’t want to get married, and I wasn’t thinking about having babies, so I didn’t really feel like I fit there. I knew I wasn’t getting married.

TS:

When you were—so when you were going to school, did you have any like dreams of what you thought you could do?

KG:

You know, no, I didn’t. I really was unclear about what I wanted to do. I knew I didn’t want to stay in Urbana. And I don’t know if it was intuitive or what, but I now look back and I know my life would have been so different if I had stayed there. And I knew I couldn’t stay. I remember telling my cousin—who reminded me of this about fifteen years ago—that I felt smothered there. There was love, there were lots of wonderful things there, but there were also things that made me feel like I didn’t fit there.

TS:

Like what?

KG:

Like I didn’t want to get married. I can’t even tell you, because I wasn’t a big dater when I was in high school. I probably went on three dates when I was in high school. And I remember my grandmother having a conversation with me that I was going to be an old maid. And I said, “That’s okay.” [laughs] And I said, “Okay. That’s fine.” I think my family was really worried about me because I wasn’t doing what my cousins were doing. I wasn’t fitting—I wasn’t doing—I wasn’t dating. I wasn’t going into that mode of getting married and having children. And one of my best friends, she got married right out of high school and started having babies. And I didn’t do that.

And I thought that I was going to go to college. I forgot about this piece. And so my dad—it was all good, going to go to college, but my dad wanted me to go to the community college in Urbana, Ohio. And I said, “I can’t do that.”  I wanted to go to a small college. I can’t even remember the name of it now. It was in northern Florida. And I made the proposal to my dad. I said, “I really want to go here. This is why I want to go.”  But I really needed to leave Urbana, that’s what I know. I knew that at fourteen. And my dad said, “No, you have to go to school here in Urbana.” And that’s what made me start to look into going in to the military. I knew I had to leave Urbana, and I didn’t know what I was going to do or how I was going to make it happen.

TS:

What made you think that the military was an option?

KG:

It was a ploy to get my father to let me go to school in northern Florida. I didn’t want to really—I wasn’t really thinking I wanted to go in to the military. I was thinking that my dad would say okay to me going to school in Florida if I came back with this proposal. But the more research I did, the more time I spend with it—because I had a recruiter. I—

TS:

Did you seek out the recruiter, or did they—?

KG:

I sought out the recruiter. And that—where I lived, I had to go to Springfield because there wasn’t a recruiter in Urbana. So they were all in a row. [laughs] And I actually went to the [U.S.] Navy recruiter, the [U.S.] Air Force recruiter, the [U.S.] Army recruiter, and the Marine recruiter. And I remember saying to the Marine recruiter, “You want a few good men, but I’m a woman. I’m female, that doesn’t make sense!” And it didn’t go over well. But that tells you who I am and how my whole story will go, because that’s the beginning. But I liked the air force recruiter because they didn’t want a few good men, and I wanted to be a female. I’m female. I wanted to be recognized for being female. I didn’t want—I’m not a man! But little did I know. And so—and I even took my mom with me.

TS:

To the recruiter?

KG:

To the recruiter because I was nervous about it, and my mom thought it would be a good idea. I don’t know. I think it was hard on my parents with me leaving like that, but I think it was good.

TS:

You were first born.

KG:

First born, I left and went so far away. And my dad was not in the military ever so—

TS:

Was there anybody in the family in the military?

KG:

My uncle, my dad’s brother, had been in the military. But again, I’m female. And where I lived, women got married and had babies. They didn’t go into the military. [laughs]

TS:

Did you know anybody that had gone in and was female or anything like that?

KG:

Never, no. I was really—I believed the recruiter. The recruiter said to me—this is a great story—that I would be stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base—that was an hour and a half from Urbana, Ohio—and I would be a secretary to a general. And that’s what I thought. I thought, “You know what, I’ll go in for four years and then I’ll be able to figure out what I want to do. It will give me that time to figure out what I want to do, because I didn’t know what I want to do.” So that’s why I was buying in to it. And I saw a picture of where I would be living. It was like a condo unit with a swimming pool, and it looked lovely. So I’m thinking, “Yes, I’ll do that!” And that’s really why I went in. I’m thinking that I’m going to be really close to home. I’m thinking that it will give me time to figure out what I want to be when I grow up. And since my dad did not say okay to me going to school in Florida, I’m thinking that I cannot live in Urbana, Ohio, for another second.

TS:

Well what did he think about you going in to the military?

KG:

My dad was supportive. I think my whole family was supportive. But when I was inducted into the air force, my dad got to—you got inducted with—I was the only woman that day. And my dad got to ride down in the elevator with me to get on the bus, and my dad cried. And I think—I look back on it and it’s a wonderful memory, but it’s a sad one. But I’m glad, you know. I think for both of us it was a good thing. Gosh, I haven’t thought about that in a long time. [choked up]

TS:

Do you remember, Kim, when they made you put your hand up and take the oath?

KG:

Oh yeah. I do. My whole family was there: my mom, my dad, my brother, my sister. They were there watching. My parents came when I graduated from tech[nical] school. My parents, I believe, were very supportive of my military time. I really do. And I think that they were proud.

But it was weird because, again, everybody in my family, if you were a girl, you got married and you stayed in this town. And I did not do that. And to this day I think that I am looked at as this kind of a black-sheep, in a way, or different. But for me it was a way to do something different. I had to. I knew at fifteen. I can’t tell you. It was clear as day. I was not going to live in this town. It’s kind of a crazy thing. And the irony: today, none of my family lives in—my immediate family—my sister does not live there, my brother, my mom, nor my dad. No one lives there. Crazy. I knew before they did. [laughter]

TS:

Well that’s really interesting. So do you—okay so 1974, that’s the year that you—

KG:

Oh yeah.

TS:

So the Vietnam War actually was—

KG:

Still going on.

TS:

—still going on. What was—

KG:

You know what, I remember my cousin Jimmy was in—and he used to live next door to us. He was in the Vietnam War.

TS:

Your cousin?

KG:

My cousin Jimmy. And we talked about it. And I’m a little girl. I’m probably—how old is Jimmy and how old am I? I’m probably ten years younger—maybe eight years younger than Jimmy. And he’s in the war. We didn’t talk about it a lot as a family, which was kind of unusual, and again something I changed with my very own family. So I did know someone in the military, but it wasn’t—I didn’t get to talk to him about the military. It wasn’t something that I felt a close bond with him over.

Anyway—I forgot that piece about Jimmy. So the Vietnam War was going on, and I knew a little bit about it. I remember thinking, “I’m female and I won’t go to war.” I knew that. And I was glad because I did not think I could hurt or kill another person. And that will come up over and over again with my career with the military. Because I really remember thinking, “I’m a girl and I won’t go to war.”

TS:

Right.

KG:

And I’m happy about it, because I don’t think—I don’t know whether—I guess now that I’m older—how you’re going to react in a situation you cannot predict until you’re in that situation. But I remember thinking that, “I don’t want to kill someone else,” and I didn’t think that I could. I might be able to now under certain circumstances. [laughter] But at that point I didn’t think that I could at all.

TS:

Well you’re—okay, so you’re growing up in Ohio—and I know that you’re getting in to the military—but Kent State [May 4, 1970, Kent State University shootings] happened in Ohio.

KG:

Yes.

TS:

You would have been still in school then.

KG:

I would have.

TS:

Do you recall that at all?

KG:

I do. And my parents—just a side note—I was in middle school, and I wanted my dad to go to Woodstock with me. I asked him. I had read about it. I said, “Dad, let’s go to Woodstock.”  And my dad of course does not explain it to me or expand on it, because my parents’ theory in raising me is if I didn’t know about it, I wouldn’t get involved in it, whether it be sex or whatever. And so—and as I look back at on now as an adult, I think that that was really a sweet thing to say to your father, you know what I mean? My dad of course says, “No, we’re not going.” But I asked my dad to go, so—

TS:

How sweet.

KG:

I thought it sweet. But now I’m thinking, “Well what if we had gone? [laughter] Wouldn’t that have been fun?”

So anyway, I think that I knew, but I didn’t know. Think about it. It’s not like today where knowledge—where there’s all this over-information. You really were not given all the information back then. And if you weren’t inclined to dig for it or to know people, you didn’t know lots of things. Again it was very—I grew up very innocently. It was a very innocent time for me. And I—and now that I am older I cherish it. I’m glad and happy that I had it. But I really knew very little about the world.

TS:

Yeah.

KG:

I mean very, very little. And my parents were not inclined to give me any clues. And so I really didn’t know much when—in Urbana. I mean it just was a very innocent, simple kind of life.

TS:

So was there any knowledge of the anti-war protests at that—in those days?

KG:

Only what I saw on the news. We never talked about it at the dinner table. We never—you know, with my own daughter we’ve had, from an early age—excuse me—conversations about what’s going on in the world. And I wanted to get her to think about it. We didn’t have those conversations in my household. It’s only what I would somehow pick up.

That’s another wonderful thing that happened to me in the military is that when I went in, I’m surrounded by these people who are very intelligent. And I hadn’t had that in my life before, until I went in. And I just loved it. I can’t even tell you. We would have these sometimes really stupid conversations together, but they were always stimulating conversations with these people. Whether it would be about protests, marijuana, sex, it didn’t matter. They were conversations that had—they were very stimulating. And I soaked it up like a sponge because I didn’t have it in Ohio. There was no one for me to talk to about that stuff. So as a matter of fact, I think I learned not to talk about it until I was in the military. But then I’m surrounded by all these people from all walks of life. And I loved it, every second of it, and cherish it still.

TS:

Well, now, do you remember specifically about Kent State then?

KG:

Only what I saw—I remember what I saw on the news. I saw—which you would still see the reruns today. But I didn’t know anything—I didn’t know anyone there. I didn’t know anything more than that. And again, we didn’t talk about it home, and we didn’t talk about it at school, which is also very interesting. Where I grew up, again, it’s almost like—I used the word vanilla. I didn’t use the word loosely. It was very much: this is your—this is it. Very—and that, again remember when I said I didn’t fit? I wanted more. It wasn’t there. There was no one to talk to.

TS:

Well so then, Kim, let’s talk about when you went into the military. Do you remember getting—did you go to San Antonio [Lackland Air Force Base, Texas]?

KG:

I went to Biloxi, Mississippi [Keesler Air Force Base, Mississippi]—

TS:

Oh, okay.

KG:

—for my boot camp.

TS:

Did you really?

KG:

Yeah.

TS:

Well tell me about that.

KG:

And again, I’ve always, I guess, marched to a different drummer. I went in and I remember being yelled at all the time. There’s someone always yelling at me, and I’m thinking—and I remember saying to one of the TIs [training instructor], “If you just ask me, I’ll do it. You don’t have to yell me all the time. I promise if you just ask, I’ll do it.”

And she was so sweet. She goes, “Well that’s not how it works. [chuckles] This is my job, is to yell at you.”

And then half way through our training, we were the first unit to have a male TI, which was quite a big deal. But it was really not a lot different for me. I really didn’t feel any difference. I was young.

TS:

Were you seventeen then, or were you twenty?

KG:

I was eighteen.

TS:

Eighteen.

KG:

I had just turned eighteen.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

And all it all—you know, the other thing: I didn’t know any of the tricks. I had a hard time making my bed the right way, getting up in time. You know, all of those things were hard for me. But I learned—one of the tricks that I learned—and I haven’t told this story in a long time. It’s kind of funny—is that I learned to get my underwear all folded the right way, get everything in there the right way—my toothpaste, the soap—you know how everything had to be exact—and one of the tricks was to just wear the same underwear every day. So when you went to go take a shower, you showered in that underwear. And I put my clean underwear in my dirty clothes bag, and you put it on damp and wet, but at least my inspections passed. And that’s all that I was worried about, was that my inspection would pass.

TS:

So you get it set and then you don’t touch it again.

KG:

Ever again! You dust it. You blow off the dust every day, and then you’re done.  [laughs] And you had toothpaste and something else in your dirty clothes bag, because the real—the stuff for the inspection was perfect. And it took a while to figure that out, but once I got that figured out I did okay.

I really had a hard time with people yelling at me, though. I did not respond well to it. And one of the things that you have to recite was your social security number. And when someone would yell at me, I would just get all flustered and I couldn’t remember my social security number. So I got to scrub the bathroom floor twice with the toothbrush because I couldn’t remember the social. But I still remember my social security number even today, so I learned it very well [laughs]. But I—again, it was—what you had to do and how you did it, it wasn’t a big deal to me at all. I just didn’t like to be yelled at. I remember that.

Another cute little story is that the male TI had a big deep booming voice, and I happened to be one of the shorter people in my flights.

TS:

How short were you?

KG:

I’m 5’4” and a half.

TS:

That’s not too bad.

KG:

I just wanted to let you know the half. [laughs] So I was at the end, because the shortest person was at the front with flag, and I was next to the shortest so I’m at the back. And every time that he would yell I would jump in the air. And the man finally took pity on me, and he would touch my shoulder before he would start yelling commands so I wouldn’t jump in the air. That’s kind of a cute story. I wish I could remember his name. He was a very nice man.

I think that I did okay in tech school. I—it wasn’t hard, again, for me. It’s just that it—I’m really good with the discipline part. I just couldn’t understand why they had to yell and do this or that. Now I do.

TS:

What kind—when you were in basic training, what did you—do you remember what you did? Did you do running or did you do—?

KG:

One of the things—I’m not a very coordinated person. You know how you have to do the obstacle course? That’s kind of a cute little story. I struggled, espec—you know where you have to climb the wall? And I really have an issue with heights. So I had trouble with both of those things. But again I think with the TIs, I learned to bond with them a little bit. And I really do think that once they spend as much time as they do with the unit, they tend to bond with the unit. It’s not—I mean I’m not coordinated and it’s all over the place that I’m not. I got words of encouragement to get through the obstacle course, and I remember feeling quite a sense of accomplishment to do it. It wasn’t easy for me, but I did do it and felt this sense of accomplishment. There was marching—lots of marching to and from, because they want you to understand how to march, how to take an order. You know we had to—it was always the hurry up and wait thing. We learned that really well. And then of course you have to go through a series of testing to figure out—because I did not sign up under a field.

TS:

Okay so you didn’t sign up for a job to start?

KG:

No, I was a general admission.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

So I had to get a job. So I went through a series of testing. And I’m sure that they were looking for Morse systems operators, and I happened to score in that area. And that’s where I ended up going.

TS:

Tell me what that job was again, Kim.

KG:

A Morse systems operator. I wish I could remember the number. Golly—

TS:

2-0—

KG:

Was it 2-0-7?

TS:

It might have been a 2-0-7, yeah.

KG:

Me too, I think.

TS:

Yeah, because 2-0-8 was a linguist, 2-0-2 was an analyst.

KG:

Yeah, I think it’s a 2-0-7. [Air Force MOS 207X1—Morse Systems Operator]

TS:

I think that’s right.

KG:

And so that’s what happened. And I remember when they figured it out. I got to go to an office and this man, who was quite large and a civilian—he was happy to tell me he was a civilian—and he was really happy to tell me I was going to be a 2-0-7, and I would be stationed at bases all over the world. And I said, “Well my—,”

TS:

Recruiter?

KG:

“—recruiter said to me that I was going to stationed at Wright Patterson Air Force Base [laughter], and live in this condo with a swimming pool, and be the secretary—,”

TS:

To a general.

KG:

“—to a general.” I go, “What happened?” [laughs] I don’t want to do that. Remember, I’m going to be at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. And he goes, “Well honey, you have a much better job.” So I was not happy because that’s not what I thought what I was going to do. So I went outside and kicked the tree, and I think I broke my toe. But I had already learned that if you got sick or something happened to you that you got to do basic training all over again. And I was almost done. I was a week out of being done—that I decided I would march with a broken toe, because I was not going to do it all over again. So I did. I was in pain that last week.

TS:

So did you ever get that checked out?

KG:

No. I got through my week and that was that. [laughter]

TS:

Now you said that your family came to your graduation. Was that at basic or was that at the tech school?

KG:

They came to the tech school.

TS:

Okay. So where did you go to tech school?

KG:

You know, I think I had it backwards. Tech school was in Biloxi and—

TS:

Did you go to San Antonio?

KG:

—San Antonio for my—

TS:

Basic training.

KG:

—basic training. Where, you know, I was there in December, and it rains a lot in San Antonio [laughter] in December. I marched a lot in the rain.

TS:

Yeah.

KG:

And when I went to tech school, it rains a lot Biloxi also, so I just passed that on—lots of marching in the rain.

TS:

Now a girl from Ohio going to Biloxi, how was that? Did you get off the base at all?

KG:

Oh, you know, it was like I—remember that I told you I grew up very vanilla, nothing unusual? And Biloxi is less than an hour away from New Orleans. And I happened to be there during Mardi Gras, and I could not be more thrilled. I think I really—for me the military was a way for me to see the world and experience it without—and I enjoyed it. My eyes were the size of saucers the whole time, and I had a wonderful time. I’m fortunate that I happened to have this inane [sic—innate] ability to find friends to help protect me. [laughter] I don’t know—

TS:

[laughter] What did you need protection from?

KG:

From the world a little bit because when you don’t know anything, when you’re not prepared for the negative of the world, it can be ugly too. And I happened to find people who were good hearted people and would just kind of keep me on—keep me on the path and not let me get involved with people that were maybe not so good. And I feel fortunate in that nothing horrible ever happened to me. And when I look back on it now, it could have—

TS:

Yeah?

KG:

—easily happened.

TS:

Like for what—give me an example.

KG:

There were women who were raped. And I can tell you a story of when I was in Japan and I happened to—coming out of a night club there was another airman who was in the process of being raped and what happened.

TS:

As you came out?

KG:

I was there with another airman. We had gone there dancing to—it was back in the disco. We were discoing. I was a disco queen for a short period of time. And so we were coming out and getting in our car, and this woman was in the process of—and we happened to interrupt it. And I honestly don’t know what happened. I can’t—it’s kind of surreal in a way where I see it happening and I start yelling at the airmen who are going to rape this woman, and I knew them because I worked with them. And I remember grabbing her by the leg and pulling her away from them. I don’t know if I pulled her or the man I was with pulled her, but we got her out of that situation. It was kind of a weird—one of those weird stories. And I can’t quite even figure out even today—tell you exactly what happened, other than we got her out, took her home, put her to bed. But it was not—there are ugly things that happen to people.

TS:

Did anything get followed up on that, do you recall?

KG:

Actually, no. And you need to remember that this was a time when—when I was in Japan a young man broke into my room, broke my door down.

TS:

While you were there?

KG:

While I was there. And—

[Conversation about aroma of food cooking redacted]

KG:

So they—he broke my door down, and I had to report it because my door was broken.

TS:

Was he coming after you?

KG:

I think so, because when he came—after he broke down the door—I lived on the second story, and I had the window open, and I was going to jump.

TS:

Oh my gosh.

KG:

Because he was like going to touch me, in my mind.

TS:

So what happened during that incident, Kim?

KG:

What happened?

TS:

I mean, did he get in or—

KG:

He got in. He came in. He saw me. He saw—I told him that I was going to call the SPs [security police], although I had no phone in my room.

TS:

Right.

KG:

And he decided to turn around and leave. So because my door was broken I had to report it. I was interrogated and asked—was told, “What did I do to make this young man break in my door.” This is great. This is a true story. And I had met him. I went to a party. I had met him, been introduced to him, but I really didn’t know him. And again, that’s one of things that I did from the very beginning. I don’t know if it was instinctive, or if it just happened. I would hang out with this small group of people, do everything with those people, so I could experience it in safety. I don’t know if I did it intuitively or if it just happened. I don’t know, but I always did it.  I was there at this party with, you know, a small group of people that I knew very well, and met him, and then a couple of nights later he broke in to my door.

So I had to pick him out of a line. I’m not kidding. And he was as close to me as you are to me right now; and I had to point at him and say, “This is the man who broke in to my door.” And I was accused of doing something to make him break in to my door, which is not true, you know. [laughs]

TS:

Yeah.

KG:

You know how I am. I’m a little crazy, but I am just kind of who I am. And it was a hard time. I actually ended up living with a married couple down on main-base for two months because I was too afraid to stay—

TS:

After this.

KG:

After this. I was afraid to be in my room. I was afraid that he would be mad at me for having to point him out—I mean retaliate towards me somehow. And I lived with them until he was shipped out.

TS:

Lived with the married couple?

KG:

Yeah.

TS:

And they said, “Okay,” which was great. But it was one of those things that happened. There were lots of things like that.

It was—it was in a way—to me at that time it was a big men’s club. Women were not a part of that club. My first boss made it very clear to me when I actually got my first job. My very first day, I’m so excited I’m going to be a Morse Systems Operator. I’m in Japan and I’m excited about it. He let me know that he didn’t think that women should be in the military. He didn’t want me there. He didn’t want to be my supervisor. It was very, very clear my very first day.

TS:

Were there other women in your unit?

KG:

There were. There were five of us when I went to Japan, my first assignment—not very many. There were probably a total of less than a hundred women on the base. I would guess even fifty. There weren’t many women there. I was one of the first women in the security service. There were—I wasn’t the first.

TS:

“Electronic Security Service”, is that what it was called at the time?

KG:

Yes. Which was not—I didn’t intend for—remember I wanted to be a secretary to a general at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. [laughs] This was not my intention. So I’m thrown into this world not really intending to be there. I remember within the first week you would—there were all these radio operators. I am one also. And you walk down this row of radio operators. There were probably twenty of them, and they were all men, and they all stood up and mooned me. I am eighteen years old from Ohio. I’ve never been mooned before. I didn’t even know what mooning was! So I don’t know what the hell is going on. [laughs] So I go, “Okay.” So you know what I did?

TS:

No.

KG:

Kim’s way. I found a way to get to my duty station without walking through that row of men. [laughter] And it took me twice as long, but I got there. That was Kim’s way of dealing with it. So it was just a real unique time. It was different for me. I really am just kind of a country bumpkin from Ohio thrown into this. And then being female, I don’t think I’m—I’ve always been one of those people who—even in Ohio, again this is where I didn’t fit—I don’t look at someone’s sex. I don’t look at what they look at. I don’t see any of that. I kind of look at how their—what their heart looks like inside. That’s kind of who I am. I know that’s weird. I know it’s unique, but I just didn’t look at it that way. And I have people in my face who are not happy about me being female.

TS:

Well did you—you talked about the circle of people you were around. So did you have people that—you said protected you, but were there maybe mentors to you for the job that you were doing with the Morse code operations or anything like that, male or female?

KG:

One of the things with tech school is that my instructor for some reason—I don’t know why—he and is his wife just kind of—I kind of felt like an arm was put around me with he and his wife. His wife wasn’t in the military. But they kind of looked out for me a little bit. It was my—one of the first times I can remember being in tech school and a man came up to me, and we were both in school, and he goes, “I don’t think that you should make as much money as I make.” 

And I said, “Well, I clean the same toilets that you do. And I clean the same garbage cans with giant cockroaches in them that you do. And I think that we should make the same amount of money.” That’s what I said. You know me and you know my mouth is huge, but that’s what I said.

And you know, I just didn’t under—I think I began. I think it was the beginning of understanding prejudice. Remember, I’m a white girl from the middle of Ohio. And I don’t think I really understood what prejudice was. Again, I think it was a gift to really—I think I have a clear idea of what prejudice is because of being in the military. I’m grateful for that, because I am a white woman. And a lot of white women have never experienced that, and I have.

TS:

Do you think that it was sexism, rather than—

KG:

I think it’s both.

TS:

Yeah. What’s the difference between them?

KG:

I think that to be prejudiced, whether it’s sexism or prejudice, is kind of the same thing. There’s someone who doesn’t like you for the mere fact that you’re female, or the mere fact that you whatever. To me it’s kind of the same thing.

TS:

So you go to Japan—

[Redacted conversation in which Kimberly excuses herself from the interview]

TS:

We’re going to stop for a second. Okay. We’ll go back to that.

[Recording paused]

TS:

Okay, Kim, before we had to take a little break there, we were talking about on your job how basically your supervisor did not want you—

KG:

No.

TS:

—there.

KG:

My first supervisor did not want me there. He made it clear.

TS:

Okay.

KG:

So being eighteen, my very—not my first boss, but close to my second boss—making it clear that he did not think that women belonged in the military.

TS:

How did that affect you when you were doing your work?

KG:

I think what I’ve learned to do—and I still do it—is that I wanted to be better than anybody else, because I wanted to prove that just because I’m female doesn’t mean that I am sub-class somehow. So I would go the other way and try to be the best that I could. But you need to know that I was not a good Morse systems operator. [laughter]

KG:

And try as I might, I was crummy at it. It was not the job for me. I’m a people person. They tied me to a machine. And I—it is not who I am. It goes against every fiber in my body. So for me it was close to torture. But I tried to make the best of it and I tried to be as good as I could be, but I was really not the best.

TS:

So your supervisor was against you—now what about the other men in your unit?

KG:

No, not so much, because I think they saw me trying. There were some men who would actually see me trying to figure it out and learn, and took time to train me and teach me.  And one of them was the analyst in my department. And I learned the most from him. Then there was a senior Morse systems operator and he was really good. He was very talented. And he taught me a lot too, but again it wasn’t going to work. Knowing what I know now— knowing who I am—I am not a Morse systems operator. [43:24]

TS:

So it was the job rather than—

KG:

Yeah.

TS:

—your abilities. It just was that it wasn’t the fit for the job.

KG:

It wasn’t. I did okay. One of my claims to fame is that while I was in Japan I found the MiG [Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 “Foxbat”] that defected from Russia. Voila—who knew! [Laughter]

TS:

Oh no, Kim!

KG:

Who knew!

TS:

What year was that?

KG:

Oh gosh, I don’t know. I went in in ’74—’74-‘75—it might have been in ’75 or ’76. [Viktor Ivanovich Belenko defected on September 6, 1976 by piloting his MiG-25 to Hakodate, Japan]

TS:

Interesting. 

KG:

And I found him—you know what an active mind I have. So I had already decided that if there was a war with Russia that the Russians would take out all of the US military bases on the way to the United States because it was a kamikaze mission. Because, they didn’t have a plane that could get to the United States and back—it made sense to me.  So I have the MiG and he is entering Japan airspace a little bit. I’m thinking okay—they would have these drills. I’m thinking, “Okay, he’s just going to turn around and go back”. When he did not turn around and go back—and I don’t even know—I will say it because I am who I am. I stood up and said—I screamed actually—“we’re all going to die!” [Laughs] And I got in a lot of trouble for that. It was not a good thing.

So even though I found the MiG—even though all this other stuff happened—I got in a lot of trouble, because he actually defected. And I learned to get excited about missions. And I learned to understand them a little bit. So I couldn’t wait to get off of my shift, because I had figured out that he had defected. I had figured all out—because guess what, the tracking stopped right at my place. And so I wanted to go down to the airfield and see the MiG. And miracles of miracles, they had it pretty much taken apart by the time I got down there.

TS:

The MiG?

KG:

Yes. And I didn’t really get to see it and I was really disappointed. But the biggest disappointment was that the next day that my boss talked to me, and said that I would no longer be tracking Russian bombers. And my new mission was to track Russian supply shipments, because I had not conducted myself very airman-like. But it all made sense in my mind, you know. And I think that’s another thing about me—I think it I can think it through and I think up my own stuff. And I had made up what was going to happen if we were ever invaded by Russia, so I got in trouble.

TS:

So what was your—what did you think if we did get invaded by Russia?

KG:

I thought that they would take out all the U.S. bases on the way to the United States, and I was one of them in Japan. And we worked underground, so I didn’t think that I would die. I just thought that the base would be bombed and that they would take out our antenna and all the—I would not be able to continue doing my job.

TS:

Right.

KG:

But I didn’t think that I would die. I thought that they would just bomb our air base.

TS:

Did you think that you would have to fight at all?

KG:

Well every year you get asked this question because of where you work. And if your base is invaded if you would be able to kill—you’d have to be able to destroy all this top secret information and there’s a process that you have to go through to do that—which I can do. But then I had to learn how to shoot a rifle, and say that I could kill somebody. And I could never say that I could kill somebody and that always got me in trouble. That’s another thing about me—I’m really honest almost to a fault—because I could never say that. I learned to say that, “you know what, I’ll have to wait and see when that situation arises.” So I really didn’t fit because here they have this person who is just honest to a fault—who isn’t really a good Morse systems operator—who’s female, God forbid, and, I mean the list goes on and on about who I am.

TS:

Well now being a female, and knowing that you weren’t the best Morse code operator; did that bother you at all—having the perception of women being in the military kind of thing?

KG:

I always tried to be as good as I could be. I guess that’s the message I would say. I really didn’t come to work thinking that I’m going to be the crummiest Morse systems operator.

TS:

Well, I didn’t say that you were the crummiest Kim.

KG:

I don’t think that I was the crummiest, but I wasn’t the best. But I did come to work every day and try to be good at it—and learn more every day. But I never—I now know that, now that I’m away from it, that I would never going to be good. The formula just wasn’t there for me to be good. And although that I kept trying—and I think people saw me trying—but I was never going to be good.  It was not the job for me. I don’t know what happened with all those tests.

TS:

[Laughter]

KG:

Something went wrong. [Laughter] Because—

TS:

The aptitude just wasn’t there, huh?

KG:

Yes.

TS:

Well let’s step away from the job then—

KG:

Okay.

TS:

Tell me what your living conditions were like.

KG:

I lived in a barracks. In Japan I lived in a total female barracks—which was right next to the male barracks. Oh, and I had a mama-san. All of us on our floor hired—I paid like five dollars a month to have this Japanese woman take care of me. She shined my shoes, ironed my uniform, made my bed, and changed the sheets. I loved mama-san. I would give her presents—she loved me—life was good.

TS:

Now did she do that for everybody on the floor?

KG:

Yeah.

TS:

But you had to pay her though?

KG:

We all had to pay her—very little money.

TS:

Five dollars a month?

KG:

Very little—maybe it was ten. It was very little money—for mama-san.

TS:

She shined your shoes?

KG:

Yeah, yeah, yeah—just left them outside of my door—shiny shoes, everyday. I loved mama-san—

TS:

Did she make your bed for you?

KG:

Yeah!

TS:

Oh my gosh [laughs]—

KG:

Washed my sheets—did everything for me. I loved mama-san. When I went to Greece I had no mama-san. So [laughter] I was really sorry when I did not have a mama-san.

TS:

Now okay, you will telling me earlier about your perception about what your accommodations were going to be like—did it meet your expectations?

KG:

No, no, no. No, I had a teeny-weenie room—this is a small room that we are in now—but it was at least maybe two-thirds—not quite a half—it was a very small room.

TS:

By yourself?

KG:

By myself—but they were set up for two people, but because there were so few women in the military we all had our own room. There were a couple of women who had to share, but we almost all had our own room. You had a refrigerator, a bed, and a shelving unit.

TS:

And a desk.

KG:

A desk—you’re right.  Yup, that was all you had. I was content with it.

TS:

No swimming pool?

KG:

No pool and actually were I was stationed—in Misawa, Japan—not only was there no swimming pool but it’s winter at least ten months out of the year. It’s the northern part of the main island and it’s very cold there. It’s beautiful but it’s cold. And I have wonderful memories of traveling in Japan. And I made friends with people in Japan. And again, the girl from Ohio would have never gone there—and I’m grateful for that. My traveling, and my friendships, and the relationships that I made I would not have traded for anything in the world—never.

TS:

Well, what kind of things did you do on your time off?

KG:

One of the things that I did. I had a really good friend—I still have her—Debby and I are still friends—very good friends—she got there two weeks before I did and we did everything together.

We decided to go to a bathhouse—a Japanese bathhouse—because they have them in Japan. You heard about them. So Debby and I decided to go—it’s a really cute story and you’re going to like it—and I’ve only told it to maybe only ten people in my entire life. My dad hasn’t even heard this story. So I’ll have to tell him this or he’ll have to go on and read it. So anyway we go and there’s a female side and a male side. And again, I’m from Ohio—people do not go naked in Ohio—ever—ever!

TS:

[Laughs] She’s made a cross—just so you know.

KG:

[Laughs]  That would never work!  So we go and you get a towel that’s about three feet long and one foot wide. And you know, the world has changed for me a little but as far as body size but some things are about the same.

TS:

[Laughter] Kim has a bosom.

KG:

[Laughter] So I decided to—so Deb and I are in there and I had to cover something up. I just know that something must be covered, and nothing can be covered with this towel Therese—I swear. I tried really hard. Something has to be covered. So I decided to cover up my hair, because it’s the only thing that I could cover up. I have to cover something. So Deb—my friend Debby is—oh gosh how tall—she’s a tall, lean girl from California.

TS:

Brunette or something.

KG:

She’s blonde.

TS:

Oh blonde, okay.

KG:

She’s beautiful and I am short and from Ohio—don’t tell anyone that I said I am short, because I never admitted it. So anyway, we go and Debbie of course is okay without having any clothes on—I am not. So we go and my hair is wrapped up in the towel. And what I don’t know is that when you get out there—that it’s now male and female—and there are these giant tubs of water that all have different temperatures—which I don’t know. And at the very end there is a waterfall. And this is all underneath a bowling alley—who knew. So this is where we are.

So Debbie of course is comfortable with all of this is already out there in a tub having a great time. So the girl from Ohio has spent a lot of time trying to figure out what to cover up, and it’s time to go out. So there are these brick pathways to the different tubs—but they’re wet—and I decided that I don’t like being naked [laughs]. So I decided that the best thing to do would be to cover up my hair and get in to the tub as fast as I can—doesn’t that sound like a great plan? So I opened the door, and I decide to walk briskly to try and get in to a tub.  But because it’s a brick path way and they’re wet I—with all my grace—fall, slide all the way to the bottom of the pathway on my butt yelling. I don’t want anyone to know that I’m there, but of course now everyone knows I’m there. And then I have to get in the tub—and guess what—the tubs get progressively hotter the further you get from the door. So I of course get in the hottest tub, and I start to hyperventilate. So just when I think that it cannot get any worse—okay, I’m thinking oh my gosh finally I’m starting to acclimate. I’m finally starting to not hyperventilate anymore—

[Conversation between Galloway and unnamed individual about dinner redacted]

KG:

So just when I think it can’t get any worse there’s this little Japanese man—who has clothes on by the way—who keeps tapping on my shoulder and talking to me. I don’t know what the hell he’s saying. I go, “go away, go away, go away” because I’m trying to be incognito—which is not working. So he keeps tapping on my shoulder. He’s not tapping on Debbie’s shoulder—he’s tapping on my shoulder. He wants me to get out and wash yourself off before I get in tub—which I don’t understand. 

So I am like done with the bathhouse. I get out. I am done being naked. I take the towel off of my head. I am yelling at Debbie that I am going home and I am done with the bathhouse. So I didn’t go in gracefully. I didn’t go in with no one knowing that I am there. I didn’t go in with covering up anything. All my worst fears were laid out for everyone to see, and I was there for maybe ten minutes. And then I went home. So I wasn’t meant for a Japanese bathhouse. [Laughter]

TS:

So let’s take a break here Kim.

[End CD 1—Begin CD2]

TS:

Okay we’re back after a lovely meal actually. Well let’s talk about—you just talked about a funny story about the bathhouse. What other kind of things did you do on your off time?

KG:

Debbie and I became friends with a man who owned a bar—a Japanese man. And in Japan—socially, there are groups of people that hangout. So there were four men and—four Japanese men and four Japanese women and Debbie and I. And we went skiing, we went bowling. We—actually Debbie and I had to take an etiquette class because we were an embarrassment to our Japanese friends; because we didn’t know to serve right, or how to do this right.

TS:

So they had you take it?

KG:

They had us take it. And I think we listened to music. We shared—for birthdays and stuff we would give them Levi’s jeans for their birthday—things that they couldn’t get. And we became a little group for a while—for about a year. And it was fun and I’m glad that I had that experience. I was 18-19, and in Japan when you are a teen you’re still a child—you’re not an adult. So for me I couldn’t do anything wrong because I was a child.  And it was a lovely, lovely innocent experience again. I cherish it to have friends in another country—in another country than the United States. So it was a fun, fun thing.

TS:

Well now—so you’re in the Air Force—was it what you expected?

KG:

No.

TS:

No, in what ways was it not?

KG:

Well I was going to the secretary to the general—

TS:

That’s right.

KG:

—at Wright Patterson Air Force Base [laughs]. And then I traveled the world really. You know I was stationed in Japan. And I was stationed on the island of Crete in Greece. And I got to see a lot of the world. I would have never have done that from Urbana, Ohio, and not only that but I was in the security service and tracked Russian bombers—which was a whole other story. I grew up with Boris and Natasha on Bullwinkle [villainous pseudo-Russian characters on The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show]. So it really opened my eyes to the world. And I was associating with other people in the military who were really smart people. I had these intelligent conversations. It was fun—I enjoyed that. I would have never—again that would have never happened in Urbana, Ohio.

I was living in that and traveling—Debbie and I went to Hong Kong on holiday for two weeks, and had a tremendous time. I would have never gone to Hong Kong. And I got to see Hong Kong at a time when it was still Hong Kong. The old—

TS:

The British were still—

KG:

It was wonderful. I mean again another wonderful, wonderful experience. So I cherish that—loved the traveling, loved the cultural experiences, loved all of that. And I soaked it up.

The military life not so much—I wasn’t—again we were kind of like oil and water, you know. Another—I have always been chubby—I have never been svelte, so that always a challenge for me—my weight. Not fitting in again. That part was hard for me, but I tried to do the best that I could—make the best of it.

I think it was another lesson. It taught me that I can choose to be happy, or I can choose to miserable. And I chose to make the best of that experience. It’s something that stuck with me my whole life. I could have taken a different path. I saw lots of people who stayed only on the base, and not do anything else. I chose a different path. I chose to embrace the experience instead of suffering the experience.

TS:

Well what about the fact of wearing a uniform—did that have any effect on you?

KG:

I was proud to wear a uniform. Because I was female—in both of the bases overseas the military and females weren’t necessarily associated. So I really had a little bit more freedom. In Japan for instance, World War II was still very much on a lot of people’s minds, so the military presence wasn’t always a positive situation. But for me—because I was female—they did not associate me with the military even though I was military. So, I did not have that same stigma.

In Greece—I look very European—and as long as I didn’t open my mouth I could pass as a European. And no one would know the difference if I was American or not.

TS:

So you wore civilian clothes?

KG:

Off-base, always.

TS:

Yeah?

KG:

We were encouraged to actually.

TS:

Yeah?

KG:

Because of what we did.

TS:

So what year were you in Crete?

KG:

Let’s see, I was in Japan in 74-75—it had to be ’77 when I was in Crete. And again, I was not associated with the military, so my comings and goings off-base pretty much—did not affect me. And I think probably if you were male with a short hair cut—being close to the base—you would have had a different experience than I did being female. So it made have been a positive thing being female and being out of the United States, because people just didn’t know that I was military.

TS:

So, how did you end up there?

KG:

In Crete?

TS:

Yes.

KG:

Debbie said—this is another story—she goes, “Kim if we take the guy who creates the assignments out to dinner he’ll let us choose what assignment we want next”. And I of course always said, “Debbie that can’t be true la-la-la”. But it was a cost of a dinner so we took him to the NCO [non-commissioned officer] club for dinner. Honest to goodness we just bought him dinner, had dinner with him, and we told him what assignment we wanted, and we got that assignment. I don’t know.

TS:

[Laughs]

KG:

I don’t know what to say. It was Debbie’s idea and I didn’t think it would work, and as always—Debbie was almost always right—it worked. Because I would never have tried it if she hadn’t had suggested it. And I wanted to go to Greece—it was my first assignment choice when I was getting out of Tech. school, but I didn’t get it because I wasn’t at the top of my class. [Laughs] So I wanted to go and because of that dinner, that probably cost no more than twenty dollars, I got that assignment. And I can’t explain it to this day other than that’s what we did—we took him out to dinner.

TS:

[Laughs] Did you have the same kind of supervisors there that you had in Japan, because you said that—

KG:

No, different supervisor in Greece. It was—again there were more women in the military at that point, but—

TS:

What year is this?

KG:

Probably ’77 now, but we’re still a minority. At this point they still don’t know what to do with me. I am tracking Russian bombers still, because that’s what I did in Japan. That’s why they gave me that same assignment. And this mission in Crete was much smaller than in Japan, so I was fine with it. It was—I am still not a very good Morse systems operator even though I’m still trying.

I—but I am getting ready to be a sergeant. You know you take tests when it’s time to be a sergeant, and it’s time to start being a supervisor. So I passed my test and am—lo and behold—I am not a very good supervisor. I’m 20—I’m still young. And I do not get a lot of respect from other airmen, and you know what—looking back on it, I wasn’t doing anything to ask for that respect. I was really just trying to fly under the radar and get through it. I didn’t fit. I shouldn’t be there.

So I get my stripe, and I have two people that—two airmen that I’m supposed to supervisor—and they won’t do anything that I ask them to do.

TS:

Male or female?

KG:

Two young males. And they’re actually cursing at me. I don’t respond well to being yelled at or cursed at. It’s not good for me. I don’t do well in that—even today it doesn’t work well for me [laughs]. So I go to the senior master sergeant, because I am obviously failing. And I ask him to take my stripe back and demote me. Because, I feel like I am not a very good sergeant and I shouldn’t have this responsibility.

And in good Senior Master Sergeant not-knowing-what-to-do-in-this-area fashion—he just stares at me and he doesn’t know what to do. And he says that he’ll get back to me. So what the air force did—and I would never do this—I have supervised many people—now that I’m 52—I did not recommend anyone make this decision. But he decided to make my little department —we were all sergeants—no one supervised anyone— there were six of us—we all held the same rank, and he actually created a department to take care of me. Which was the wrong decision to make—he should have either given me training to supervise, or demoted me. One or the other—he had two choices, but he made that choice.

And I look back on that, and I think it was a very kind choice. And in his defense, I don’t think he knew what to do with me. Honestly what do you do with someone like—I’m failing—I’m not doing it—what do you do with me? And that’s what he decided to do.

TS:

So he had you in a room with other ones—you’re all of equal rank?

KG:

We’re all equal—even the analysts—we all held the same rank: every single one of us.

TS:

So there was nobody over anybody else?

KG:

No, no one over, and no one under. We all were equal—is that crazy?

TS:

Were the other ones having the same problem, or was—

KG:

No, only me—

TS:

[Laughs]

KG:

—only me.

KG:

Funny enough it’s where I learned—it’s probably my best experience in being a Morse systems operator—because I’m around people who know their job and are willing to help me learn. It was my best time in learning in how to be a Morse systems operator. If you think about it my first experience—my supervisor didn’t teach me how to be a Morse systems—he didn’t like me. And you know, I’m really just out there grabbing for the information and people are trying. But you know there really is no formal training—on-the-job training. And I’m out there on my own until I—and then the—now, I’m a little bit older and have a little bit more experience. I know the questions to ask.

There was one guy—his name was Jay Jay—and he was really good at his job. I mean he was really good. I learned a lot from him. I still am not a good Morse systems operator, but I’m the best I can be working with Jay Jay—because he could teach me more, and I’m working with him every day side by side. And it was as far as my job goes, it was probably one of the best times in my job.

TS:

Did you feel at this time that the air force was treating you fairly?

KG:

No.

TS:

In what way were they not treating you fairly?

KG:

When I got to Crete it was where I met my husband—we were dating and eventually got married while we were in Crete. And an example to that is after my husband and I were married the air force would want me sometimes to work a different shift —which was fine—they would go to my husband and ask him if it was okay for me to work a different shift. And I would—it just would really made me mad. Eventually I had to go and say, “you know what if want him to work that shift then you ask him, but if you want me to work that shift then you should ask me—because he’s not going to be the one here working. I am.” There were things like that.

TS:

So they allowed him to make decisions—

KG:

Well they were[?], because that wasn’t going to fly.

TS:

Right.

KG:

But they tried.

TS:

They tried.

KG:

I think it’s out of—again not of knowing what do with women in the military, and having these preconceived notions of how women should be in the military. And not treating you as an equal. I think—this a horrible thing to say but I’m going to come out and say it—I’ve been asked a couple of times if I thought that women should be in a combat zone. And if that experience—

TS:

At this time you were asked that, or? 

KG:

Later.

TS:

Later, okay.

KG:

And I think because of the experience I had in the military I would say, “no.” Because I knew to be successful in a combat zone you’d need to be an equal in order for that mission to be successful. And I don’t think that would happen—not in my time frame—not with my experience.

TS:

Right.

KG:

Because I was—I do not think I was equal.

TS:

At that time—in the ‘70s?

KG:

In the ‘70s, yes.

TS:

Well did you have—see you’ve talked about a terrible experience about the women you saw that was being raped outside of the club in—is that Japan?

KG:

It was Japan.

TS:

Did you have any other experiences with any other sexual harassment yourself, personally?

KG:

You know I guess—you know this is kind of—I think I just got used to it. I think that the experience of being mooned in Japan; the experience of your boss saying that they don’t think that you should be there, because you’re a woman; the experience of your boss asking your husband if you can work a different shift—I think it was in my face over, and over, and over again. And remember in the ‘70s there was not a term of sexual harassment. I didn’t know what it was, but I know I didn’t like it. How’s that?

TS:

Right.

KG:

So you couldn’t label it that because you didn’t know. I remember watching a special on the news program on TV—years later—and thinking, “Oh my gosh I know what that is—that’s sexual harassment—I know what that is now!” It was like an “aha” moment. I just knew that I didn’t like it. And I knew it wasn’t correct, but I honestly didn’t know—I didn’t have a label for it.

TS:

Well the women’s movement was going in the background in the civilian world at this time. Did that kind of permeate in anyway—

KG:

Not in the military. The military made it very clear to you all of the time that they owned you. You were a piece of property, and they could do with you as they chose. So I didn’t feel like that had any impact on me, because I felt like I was a piece of property—like a game piece on a board. I didn’t really feel like I had any say in that. I didn’t really even think I had any say on people mooning me on my way to work. I didn’t think that I had any say in my boss saying that he didn’t like—saying that he thought that I shouldn’t be there. I had to make the best of that situation. I couldn’t change that situation. But what I know now—just by being there and going through it—I have made a difference. I feel that way. I feel that by surviving it, and working through it, and allowing more women—making the way for more women coming into the military—it did make a difference. I feel strongly about that.

TS:

So even though maybe at the time you didn’t realize—

KG:

I didn’t at the time.

TS:

So you were kind of a trail blazer just by being present and improvising.

KG:

And surviving. I think by sticking it out and staying in—

TS:

Yeah.

KG:

I think I was a trail blazer, but I didn’t feel that way at the time. I felt like I was just surviving it. Does that make sense?

TS:

Yes. Now did you have contact with like the girls you went to school with in high school?

KG:

Yes.

TS:

Where they having similar experiences in the civilian world that you can recollect?

KG:

Remember I’m from Ohio and everyone is supposed to get married and have babies. So—

TS:

So they weren’t working?

KG:

My one girlfriend got married immediately out of high school and started having babies. I had another girlfriend who went to college and got married just before she graduated. And then I have another—two other girlfriends who actually became partners. I don’t think I actually ever told you this story. And I think because of where we came from could not openly and honestly talk to me about it. I don’t think they understood that I would probably be okay with that [laughs].

TS:

So they were lesbians?

KG:

Yes and I—

TS:

And they were from?

KG:

Urbana, Ohio.

TS:

Urbana, Ohio.

KG:

Which was okay, but because of what was happening—the experiences I was happening—were happening for me—I think I was okay with that. If I had stayed in Urbana I would not have been okay with that.

TS:

Well let’s talk about that, because when we had the break you were talking a little bit about you had experience with gay men and lesbians. Do you want to talk about that at all?

KG:

Sure. While I was in Crete I was friends with a man who was gay and there were—

TS:

Was he in the military?

KG:

He was in the military. And we—there were five of us, so there were four guys and I—we hung out. We would go to parties together. We would travel together. We would do things together. And it was fun, you know. And it was a way for me to go out and be safe, and so I felt very safe and secure with these men. I had no idea he was gay, but I usually don’t see that stuff.

And so he—one of the guys came to my room—which remember, this was back when there were total female dorms and male dorms. So it was odd. I mean they just didn’t come to my room. And we would meet in break rooms and stuff. So he came to my room he was agitated—he said that this man was beating himself up in the male bathroom in the male dorm. I asked, “what are you talking about”? He said, “banging his head against the wall—this and this”. And I go—and the man that came to room his name was Nickioden[?] and he is a big Norwegian man. I mean he’s over six feet tall—he’s huge. He’s all muscles—you know what I’m talking about— he’s a huge man, and I go, “okay.”

So I go over to the male bathroom and sure enough he’s just a bloody mess. And I said “Nickioden[?]”—and he’s not much bigger than me—the one beating himself up—and I said “pick him up—Nickioden pick him up” —like I wanted him to stop.  So he starts sobbing and telling us how he is gay, and how unhappy he is. And how he doesn’t want to be gay—la-la-la. And I go “well”— and this is a time when you could not be gay in the military. It just—you couldn’t.

TS:

At this time I think that is still true.

KG:

[Laughs] Why—I want things to change. But anyway you couldn’t be, and so he is telling this story.  And it’s sad. And we’re all crying. I said okay, “first things first: one, none of us heard this conversation; two, you fell down in the bathroom”. We had to create a story to take him to the infirmary. And we all had to stick to the story, and take him to the infirmary, so that he could get patched up.

And we never—and this is the saddest part and I wish I could change it today—we never talked about it again. Because we knew it would hurt him. So we never—as a group—we never talked about it again. We went on about our lives. Did the same stuff that we always did—cared about one another—did stuff together—but never talked about it again. It was kind of a sad story in my mind. But I knew it would hurt him if we talked about it openly—he would be hurt. People would hurt him, and I didn’t want that to happen to him.

It’s a sad story.

TS:

Did you ever know what happened to him?

KG:

No.  I left—well I got married and he left—things happened. Then also in Crete I met a lesbian woman. And I—again it was something new for me—and did not understand about being a lesbian. I’m from Ohio.

TS:

No Lesbians in Ohio [laughter].

KG:

I think there are, but no one ever talked about it. So fortunately for me this woman did want to talk about it, and would let me ask as many questions as I wanted to ask. And explain as much as I wanted to know. And we became friends. And I feel—again I was given a gift and learned that she was the same as me. There was no difference and I—because of the way she explained things to me. She had a wonderful way of explaining it which made it seem very simple, easy—uncomplicated. And I felt comfortable with her explanations, and it stayed with me forever. It gave me, again, the knowledge that people don’t choose to be gay or lesbian. It’s how it is. The same as it is with me—I don’t choose to be heterosexual. I didn’t wake up one day and say I’m going to be heterosexual. It’s just how it is. I don’t even think about it, and I think it works the other way too.

And I think this woman gave me that gift, and helped me figure that in my Ohio-brain. And I’m happy about that because I got to learn at a young age a big thing. And that is one of the wonderful things about being in the military—you get to meet all kinds of people. I’m happy about it.

TS:

Do you think that has lasted through your life now—

KG:

Yes.

TS:

—that experience with meeting people from all over—

KG:

Yes.

TS:

—of different types?

KG:

But I also think—remember that 15 year old who knew she had to leave Urbana, Ohio?

TS:

The what?

KG:

The 15 year old girl who knew she needed to leave Urbana.

TS:

Right.

KG:

I think that I’m a little bit different. I can’t explain it. My husband will say—when we go visit my family, “how did you come out of that family?” I look at the world a little differently. And I think the air force helped me do that, but I think I knew at 15 that I needed to.

TS:

Do you think that—because I have talked to a number of women that went into the military where it wasn’t a tradition or anything like that.

KG:

Yes, it’s the same. 

TS:

Do you think you had a feeling of wanting something more, or what was it that—can you put your finger on what drove you to?

KG:

I told me cousin and said this earlier—it just was a feeling of being suffocated there. I told you I felt safe and secure in Urbana, but I also felt suffocated. It was like I wasn’t able to see everything and I think I really had a thirst—maybe I can say it’s knowledge it’s— I maybe I can say it’s you know—I wasn’t really into going to school—I don’t know what it was. I think it was just knowing more than Urbana.

TS:

Do you think it had anything to do with a sense of independence? 

KG:

I wanted to be independent of my folks. I loved them, and that’s kind of—I felt torn, because I can also remember thinking that—I was telling my sister this story—I was worried that after I left home that my folks wouldn’t be able to function without me. I was worried that my mom could not drive to Springfield twenty miles away. I drove here there whenever she had an errand to run there, you know. I’m ten years older than my brother—I’m responsible most of the time for my brother and sister. I was worried that they wouldn’t be okay without me. I don’t know.

I can’t quite put my finger on it, because I loved them so much and missed them so much. But on the other hand I just knew that I had to leave. I can’t—I really can’t explain it. I can’t explain it to myself. And my family doesn’t understand it. I mean, again I told you that they thought I was the black sleep because I did leave. I can’t explain to you why because there was—you know, I was attached to them but I just felt this strong need to do something different. And I thought that I would just going to go to northern Florida and go to school for four years—that’s what I thought would work [laughs]. I didn’t know.

TS:

Well you talked about some of the unfair treatment you got—how about the fact that you were getting the same pay and you got promoted to sergeant—did you feel that there was a level playing field there at all?

KG:

I think the promotion—I mean it’s the natural progression—I think it was the same for everyone as it was me. When I was in tech school I had someone who didn’t think that I should get paid the same as they did. Pretty much I didn’t broach those subjects. I wouldn’t go out of my way to talk about that, because I had already experienced a negative there. I thought if I was doing the same work as my co-worker, then I should get paid the same salary. I still feel that way and I know it’s still not equal today. And I’m disappointed in that actually—after thirty-some years I would have thought we would have come a lot further than we have. In that time I thought if I was doing the same work then I should be getting the same pay.

TS:

Do you think that there’s—it was ’78 that you got out Kim?

KG:

Yes.

TS:

So what’s that—thirty years ago?

KG:

Yes.

TS:

So thirty years ago you were getting the same pay for the same job. And now in the civilian world—do you think that there was a difference in the civilian world and the military world as far as the way they did that—at least that part?

KG:

Oh yeah as far as pay—I think that it was equal. But my husband was a golden boy. They loved—the military loved Galloway. The military did not love me, so I did get to see a little bit of that—like Galloway would get three day passes and I would never get a three day pass, you know. I’m not saying that I was a star and should have, but I also think that they—what do I want to say—I think that they mentored him. I think that they saw—I don’t think that I had mentors really [laughs]. I don’t. There was no one to—I mean the first sergeants—I mean they tried to keep my out of trouble don’t get me wrong. 

And I think that’s another thing I learned in the military that I use today—that when I’ve had employees in the past I love to be a mentor. And it’s something that I learned in the military.

And the other thing that I learned is just because of your age doesn’t mean that you’re not qualified to do the job. As a 19 year old I’m tracking Russian bombers and protecting the United States—hey, if I can do that then I think that all the people I supervised can do whatever it is. Because, it wasn’t going to kill anybody or anything—I really feel strongly about that. But I did learn about being a mentor, because there were people looking out for me. And I wasn’t really even paying attention to that in the military. And I know that now that I’m older. But, as far as helping me with my career and moving me forward—I didn’t have anyone really like that.

TS:

Did you have any female figures that—

KG:

None.

TS:

None?

KG:

Absolutely none.

TS:

Do you think that would have made a difference at all?

KG:

Maybe—you know. Maybe if I—but remember I couldn’t—there were so many things going on that didn’t have labels. And it was so new that I don’t think that even if I had someone we couldn’t have figured it out ourselves—what to do.  And there was a lot of prejudice. I mean there were men who didn’t want women there, period. Even back then I called it a big men’s club—I knew enough to call it that [laughs]. And, so I think that there’s probably still a lot of truth to that statement—a big men’s club.

TS:

Well did you—so you said that you met you husband in the military.

KG:

I did. And I would have never come to Oregon. And I would have never met him otherwise and I feel grateful for that. And it was just we were friends—he hung around with that group of people and it just—that’s one of the best things that came of the military for me—Mrs. Galloway. And I still call him by his last name, because we were friends and that’s how we met—

TS:

What’s his full name Kim?

KG:

Paul Galloway.

And, I’m sure there were people telling him to get away from me because I was not the military type. And we were talking about this at dinner but I think that he probably—I think that he would have been career military if he hadn’t found me. Because, I was having all these negative experiences that you couldn’t label. And he didn’t think it was right that they were asking him if I could work a different shift. I didn’t think that it was right. And I think he would have stayed in if he hadn’t met me.

TS:

So you signed up for four years.

KG:

I signed up for four.

TS:

Did you have any thought of reenlisting?

KG:

We did—Galloway was thinking about reenlisting. He had enlisted for six years, and his term was just about up. And I said that I would enlist for four more years if that was what he wanted to do. But what Galloway forgot at dinner is that they couldn’t guarantee him that we would be stationed at the same base at that time. And he had an assignment I think to Germany—Wiesbaden?

TS:

Wiesbaden.

KG:

And they couldn’t guarantee it and our assignments weren’t up at the same time. There was quite—maybe four of five months difference between. There was that and you know I’m having trouble. And he decided to get out. And he became my dependent, and we had a lovely summer on the island of Crete with him as my dependent. It was wonderful. I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

TS:

Was it easy to make him a dependent while you were—

KG:

Yes. Very easy.

TS:

Really, because just a few years earlier it was not so easy for women to make it.

KG:

Well, I don’t know. He became my dependent—we married—we lived off base. We had a lovely summer. I worked—we worked shift work: four on and one off; four on and then four off—something like that. I can’t remember how it went. But it was like had four days off every so often and it was just wonderful. It was a wonderful summer. I don’t know—and then he became my dependent. I got out of the military in New Jersey which was interesting.

TS:

Why?

KG:

Because, again it’s the bureaucracy of the military. It’s like okay I think I’m getting out, and you’re on this base for like a week—and “I’m still in the military why am I not out?” And [laughs] I don’t understand. And I had a stint of rebellion. I got out, and finally and I had twenty four—I got to stay on base for a couple of more days—and I actually burnt my uniform—I know it’s horrible but I burnt my everyday uniform in a trashcan in the dorm. I just couldn’t do it anymore. I was so sick and tired of that uniform. I could not deal with it anymore. I wasn’t not like being patriotic. It was being tired of the uniform. I was tired of it.

So see why I didn’t fit? I just didn’t fit. I just have a very strong will I guess.

TS:

Was this when you got out, or before you got out?

KG:

It was just there—I had just gotten my papers but I was still on base.

TS:

You may not have to wear this one again?

KG:

No, I didn’t have to wear it again [laughter]. I know I was just tired of wearing it day-in and day-out.

TS:

Well upon reflection then, so you got out thirty years ago—

KG:

You know that’s odd. I hadn’t thought of it that way—it is odd. Yeah, thirty years ago—

TS:

Do you think that being in the military influenced you in anyway?

KG:

Yes.

TS:

Tell me about that.

KG:

I think it’s made me more accepting of lots of things. More accepting of differences—

TS:

You mean in people?

KG:

In lots of things. I think not just people, but in cultures, and in the way people live, and the choices that they make. Those differences I think are wonderful—I love those differences. And I think if I had stayed in Ohio where everyone is kind of the same—I would have never learned to embrace those differences. Then I met Galloway—well I’m from Ohio and he’s from Oregon, and what another big difference. Then we got married, and we have this daughter. And I think it made me a better mom. I think it made me a better mom to my daughter.

You know, I wanted to teach her how to think and not just how we do things. You know, I talked to you about how we didn’t talk about current affairs at the dinner table. We’d talk about current affairs at our dinner table when she was a little girl. I remember that one of our conversations was that—I think a “Miss America” had had a boob job, and whether she should be “Miss America” is she wasn’t naturally all “Miss America.” And [laughs] you know what, we had a long conversation about that at the dinner table that night you know. Keisha[?] came from the time when Pee-wee Herman [a comedic character played by the actor Paul Reubens]—we had a conversation about Pee-wee Herman.

I’d glad to have that openness and that ability to look at that diversity and accept it. And I do not think that I would have learned that in Urbana, Ohio.

TS:

So diversity—uniqueness of individual different experiences—things like that?

KG:

And it’s okay—embrace it, accept it, be happy about it. I think know that’s why the world is more interesting because there are those differences, and be happy about it. Where in Ohio—I think that if we had I had married Galloway and we had lived in Ohio that would have never happened—

TS:

Of course you would have never met him in Ohio.

KG:

That’s true, but I probably wouldn’t be married today if I was still in Ohio [laughs].

TS:

[Laughs]

KG:

I wouldn’t have married any of those people.

TS:

Well have your thoughts on patriotism changed at all from when you enlisted?  Because there was a war going on at that time that you said earlier that you weren’t too focused on—

KG:

They were—all the people who had been drafted—they were in about six to eight months after I really started—when I went to Japan—there were still a few people there who had been drafted. By about eight months after I had been there they were all gone—they didn’t want to be there anymore. I think I’m much more patriotic and I think that when—

TS:

Today?

KG:

Today.  I think that when people talk about veterans, I know what that means. And even if I didn’t fight in a war—I got to talk to people who had. And really appreciate what they have given to me personally—to be able to live here. And to have had the experience to live in other countries where the freedoms are not the same as living in this country—has also helped me become more patriotic. And to try and pass that on to my daughter and other people that I am around. I think that I am a big proponent of being a voter—to think for yourself—do not be a follower, but be an independent thinker. I try to mentor that. I try to emulate that. And I think—again it’s helped me to become a better mother.

When Keisha [?] was 18 she wasn’t so interested in voting, but now that she’s 20 we discussions about it. And it’s fun—I have to say I enjoy it now. But I can remember when she turned 18 we had long, long discussions with her about voting, and why she should want to vote and be interested. And you know it doesn’t always click when someone turns 18, but now I’m proud of her. I mean she’s an intelligent young woman, and I’m proud that I’m her mother.

TS:

So Kim we’re now in a different kind of war.

KG:

Oh—

TS:

What do you think about that?

KG:

Yeah—I don’t understand everything about this war—it’s not so simple. And I do believe in basic human rights—I do believe in that. But I also understand that different countries and different parts of the world operate different than the United States. And what makes this so hard for me is that—and I think for most of us—is that you can’t put our beliefs and our ideas into what’s going on in this war—because it doesn’t equal. So I have a real hard time with that piece. But I don’t want to see people terrorized. And I don’t want to see injustices. And I would like to see people be able to vote for what they would like. But I’m not the naïve 18 year old from Ohio anymore, and I know the world doesn’t always work like that—all parts of the world. I don’t know—I really—I cannot give you a simple and clear answer to that, because it’s very, very complicated. And I honestly don’t know what the best thing is.

TS:

Well let me ask you about the role of women now, because you talked about—a little while ago—when you were in, you couldn’t fathom women being in combat because of the lack of acceptance.

KG:

Yes, that’s exactly right.

TS:

So what about today—do you think its different today for the women who serve in the military than from thirty years ago when you where in?

KG:

You know about five years ago a young woman came to me and asked me—she was getting ready to go into ROTC [Reserve Officer Training Corps], and she had lots of questions for me. And I answered all of them. And I got to see her a couple of years ago, and I think that the world has changed a lot for women in the military. Because, the table turned when I saw her a couple of years ago; because I had a lot of questions for her. And I think I was wonderfully surprised at the answers. I didn’t hear that there was any sexism. She was very happy with her experience with the military. I felt very—I only heard positive answers to my questions and so I can—I don’t have a personal experience—but from talking to this young woman, I think that it would be okay for women to be in combat.

And it takes people’s perspectives and their—and they way that they look at things to change, because if you are truly two people—rather if you’re male and male; or male and female going after the same mission and you can look at each other as equals and know that that person is going to hold up their end—then it will work. If one of those people cannot then it won’t work.

TS:

If they cannot think that the other one will hold it up, or rather they cannot—or rather they can or not?

KG:

If they think. Because, you know one of the things that you get older—you never know what you’re going to do in a situation until you get into the situation. And you may think that you know but you never really know. And you know fortunately—and I do say fortunately—I have never been faced with having to kill another human being. And I feel blessed for that—I mean honestly that’s a tough thing. I don’t know—if you ask me today when I had my daughter I told my husband that I should wear a sign that said, “if you hurt my daughter I will kill you” [laughs]. And I think the world changed a little bit for me when I became a mom. And I do think now that I could—if I thought that I was being threatened of my family was being threatened—that I would protect myself and my family. I didn’t know that when I was 18. I know that at 52, but I didn’t at 18. And that’s a big question to ask an 18 year old—I think. But I do know now, but it took having my daughter to really figure it out—to have that much—I don’t know—love or that momma bear protectiveness to figure it out. But I didn’t know at 18—it took a long time.

TS:

Well we’ve talked a lot about your time in the service, and it’s like you have mixed feelings about it somewhat.

KG:

I do. I guess—you remember that thing I said, “you know what I could have chosen to be miserable, or I could have chosen to make the best of it?” I chose to make the best of it, and I think all of those experiences have made me the person I am today. And I’m happy with the person I am today.

You know, I think that everyone should take from that—no matter where you are, or what you’re doing—you get to choose what you’re going to do with those experiences that you have. No one has 100% positive experiences, but if you learn from them—you grow from them—you take something from that is going to make your life better in the future, then it’s a good thing. And that’s what I choose to take from the military: there were good experiences and there were bad. But I’m choosing to take from that a positive experience to move forward in my life. And I think that’s what you should do.

TS:

So if I asked you today—what does patriotism mean to you today?

KG:

Oh gosh. I guess I think it’s corny to say that I love my country, but I do—I know it’s a crazy thing. I did learn to appreciate the United States by that traveling, and even the traveling that I gave done since the military. I love this country. I feel proud to be a U.S. citizen. And I know it’s not always fashionable or good to be a U.S. citizen when you travel overseas—but, I am proud to be a U.S. citizen. And I’m proud to be a part of a country where I can vote. And I know that I don’t get equal pay, because I am a female. But if I can voice my opinion and not go to prison or maybe be killed—I don’t have to wear a veil over my face—you know, there are things about this country. And I also live in a town in the United States that is very liberal, and I like it. You know, I know that if I had stayed in Urbana—versus living in Ashland—my life would have been very different. And I like where I live. And I—it’s not just living in Oregon—it’s living in Ashland. Ashland is a very liberal town—very accepting of differences—and it’s not that way even every place in the United States—it’s getting better, but it’s not good enough yet. And so I get to live in a place that’s accepting of that. And I’m pleased with that. When we talk about moving, you know—I get a little nervous—I know I live in a special place—I know that. It’s not perfect—I don’t know if there is a perfect place. But it is a unique place and I know that. And it’s because I know something different.

I think that’s the bottom line. That’s what the military teaches you—it teaches you to know when you have a good thing.

TS:

There you go. Well two more questions. One—and after talking to your daughter I don’t think that this is ever going to happen [laughs]—but what if she wanted to join the military. What would you say to her?

KG:

We would support it. We have always supported whatever she’s wanted to do. My daughter is not a clone of me or my husband—you know that—and she’s very fashionable, would you say that?

TS:

[Laughs] I would say that—I think that’s a good word.

KG:

I think that’s a good word for her, and her parents are not.

TS:

[Laughs]

KG:

And I think we support it because we know that it’s something that she wants to do. So if she had decided to go into the military we would support it. And I think—you’re right I don’t think she’s going to—but if she did, we would. You know?

TS:

So my last question is—is there anything—and we’ve talked about quite a lot today—

KG:

We have.

TS:

Is there anything that you’d like to add that we haven’t talked about Kim?

KG:

I just want—I guess I would want everyone to know that I do view my experience as a positive experience in the military. I wasn’t going to stay in—because I didn’t fit. And maybe I was just not—maybe the military wasn’t quite ready for me [laughs]—it needed to grow up a little bit to be ready for me.

TS:

That’s a good way to put it.

KG:

But it wasn’t—I cherish the experiences—I look back on them fondly. When I tell you the stories I hope you hear the happiness in my heart when I tell them. And I wouldn’t trade it for anything—I really wouldn’t. I would do it all again. I would do that again in my life. And because it was such a big—I think it just kind of made me figure a lot of things out at an early age—where I think that some people never figure those things out. It allowed me the opportunity to figure them out. I had to take the opportunity—a lot of people don’t do that [laughs]. But I feel fortunate that I had it, and I seized it. So I would do it again.

TS:

Excellent, well thank you Kim.

KG:

Thank you too, Therese.

TS:

It’s been a great interview.

KG:

It’s been fun—

TS:

I loved talking to you.

KG:

I loved talking with you too.   

[End of Interview]